I Was In Dachau

Dachau War Trial
8 December 1945

DIRECT EXAMINATION
(LAURENCE – recall –direct,cross)
(EDWARDS – direct)

Questions by the prosecution:
Q. Will you state your full name, please?
A. Edwards, Llewellyn Edwards.
Q. And how old are you?
A. Thirty – five years of age.
Q. And what is your home address?
A. 12 Nora Street, Roath, Cardiff, Wales.
Q. Are you a member of the British Army?
A. I am sir.
Q. And what is your regiment?
A. Welsh Regiment, sir.
Q. And where are stationed at the present?
A. Landside.
Q. And how long have you been a soldier?
A. Sixteen years, sir.
Q. Now, Edwards, I will ask you whether or not you were taken prisoner in North Africa?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On what date?
A. 11 February 1942, sir.
Q. And by whom were you taken prisoner?
A. By the Germans, sir.
Q. Now, after you were taken prisoner, to what place were you taken?
A. To Camp 85, Brindisi, Italy, sir.
Q. And after you left Camp 85, where were you taken?
A. In May to Camp 65, near Gravisni.
Q. And from Camp 65 to what place were you taken?
A. In June 1943 to Camp 52 near Genoa.
Q. And from Camp 52, where were you taken?
A. After the capitulation of Italy we were being transferred, officers and non-commissioned officers, being transferred by train to Germany.
Q. And what if anything happened to you while you were on this train?
A. I escaped from the train three miles north of Cremona, sir?
Q. Were you subsequently recaptured?
A. Yes, after nearly a month.
Q. And after you were recaptured, were you later brought to Germany?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And to what place in Germany were you brought?
A. Dachau Concentration Camp, sir.
Q. And when did you arrive at Dachau Concentration Camp?
A. On the 18 October 1943, sir.
Q. Now, when you arrived here, were you alone or were there other people with you?
A. No, sir, there were about eighty of us.
Q. Were there any other members of the British Armed forces with you?
A. Yes, sir, two or three French and two English soldiers.
Q. Now, Edwards when you arrived here in the camp at Dachau, about what time of the day was it?
A. It was just before mid-day, sir, around about mid-day.
Q. And where were you taken within the camp?
A. To the Camp square ---- I can’t speak plainly, because I have no teeth.
Q. Now, when you arrived at the camp square, what happened there?
A. We had to take all our clothes off, sir.
Q. What was the weather that day?
A. It was drizzling cold rain, sir.
Q. And after you had your clothes taken off, then where were you taken?
A. Taken down, and all the hair taken from our body and head with clippers.
Q. And then where did they take you?
A. To the bath, sir, hot and cold, sir.
Q. And then after you were in the shower room, then where were you taken?
A. Taken along and given prison uniforms, sir.
Q. And after you received your uniform, where did you go?
A. Back and collected our uniform which we had taken off.
Q. And what was done with that?
A. That was put in brown bags with whatever belongings were in our pockets, put in brown bags and put into a magazine.
Q. Now, following that, will you please state whether or not you were placed in a block.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after you were placed in the block, did you make any effort to obtain an interview with the Camp Commandant?
A. Everyday sir.
Q. Was this effort to obtain an interview successful?
A. No sir.
Q. Who was the Camp Commandant at that time?
A. Weiss, sir.
Q. Now, did you later see the Camp Commandant?
A. Not Weiss, sir.
Q. Who was it you later saw?
A. Another officer that took over from Camp Commandant Weiss, sir?
Q. And approximately when was it that you saw that officer?
A. In the early days of November 1945, sir.
Q. And where was it you that you happened to see him?
A. The Camp Commandant was coming down to the camp with the then Rapportfuhrer?
Q. What was the name of the Rapportfuhrer
A. That one there (pointing)
Q. What is his number, please? Stand up and look and see which man it is.
A. Boettger, sir.
Q. Now, will you explain what happened on that occasion?
A. As all my applications had failed to reach the Camp Commandant I approached him in person. I saluted him in the military style without removing my head-dress. The Rapportfuhrer struck me down.

Defense: Now, if it pleases the court, I want to object to this matter, as being an incident of evidence not proper in rebuttal proof. It is entirely new incident, which has no where appeared in the record before. According to the Manual here, the defense will not be entitled to surrebuttal, so this is as though a witness were coming in here and making an accusation, and not permitting the accused the opportunity to affirm or deny the accusation. I therefore object to the introduction in rebuttal proof of any new matter, and this is the first material bit of proof that has occurred in this line of testimony, and is definitely without the scope of either the prosecution’s proof in chief or in the defense’s proof in chief.

President: What is your reference?

Defense: Sir, I don’t have that paragraph open here. Colonel Denson probably has the reference.

Prosecution: It is page 56. It doesn’t say what you say, though, it don’t say that.

Defense: I probably left out a “the” or an “and (Defense Counsel then read from the Manual.) I didn’t quote it verbatim, and I will apologize to the court for that delinquency.

Prosecution: May it please the court, may I have the opportunity to answer that? The matter which has already been testified to by Sergeant Edwards is preliminary to the main gist of his testimony. We think we are entitled to show the circumstances leading up to the main point for which he is being put on the stand, which is in direct rebuttal to the testimony of one of the defendents produced in this case. And we think, as a matter of orderly procedure, we are entitled to show the circumstances preceding the main event which he will testify to in a couple of minutes. That is why he is being taken along step by step, and we submit that that is perfectly proper procedure.

Defense: May it please the court, I haven’t the remotest idea what the main event, the feature, will be, but I submit to the court that it is improper to permit counsel, by chronological relation of certain events preceding the feature, to accuse forty people of murder, just under the guise of it being incidental to that feature that we wait for. Now this man has come in and testified that one of the defendants knocked him down. That is a new matter. It is an accusation against Boettger. It is an accusation that Boettger will not have the opportunity to either admit, deny, or explain, and therefore I submit, as a matter of law, and a matter of just plain, simple fair play, such a matter should not be permitted to be introduced in proof without giving defense an opportunity for surrebuttal, and that opportunity is not provided in the rules for procedure.

President: The objection is overruled. The court wants it clearly understood by the accused that we will continue to receive evidence on any matter that you feel is essential to the defense of the accused, that it is proper to receive, that has probative value, and we will continue to receive it for an indefinite period.

Q. Now, Edwards, after you were struck down, what was said?
A. It was told me by a Polish interpreter at that time that the Camp Commandant said “What does that dog want?”
Q. Then what was said?
A. The Polish interpreter asked me ---- I told him I was a British soldier, ex-prisoner of war in Italy, and that I should have gone to a prisoner of war camp in Germany. He then gave me permission for a political interview.
Q. Now, who did you go and see for that political interview?
A. The Political Agent and Criminal Investigator for Dachau.
Q. Did you get to see him the first time you went to see him?
A. No, sir.
Q. What was on the door at the office there when you went to see this man?
A. Herr Kick, Political Agent, Criminal Investigator.
Q. How many times did you have to go there before you finally got to see Kick?
A. I saw him on the fifth time I went over there, sir.
Q. Now, when you got to see him on the fifth time, explain what happened.
A. I had a Polish interpreter with me, and Kick said, “What does this man want?”, in German. The Polish interpreter told him who I was, and the Polish interpreter was trying to assist me in asking Kick questions, to try and get me what I was after.
Q. Then what happened?
A. Kick struck the interpreter out.
Q. Then what happened?
A. He told me in plain English - - “Now we can speak.” He asked me what my nationality was, and I told him English. He called me a liar. I said I wasn’t, I was English, and a British soldier. He called me a liar. At this time there was an SS man came into the room and Kick spoke to the SS man, and the SS man pushed me. Kick struck me, and that was carried on between one and the other for a period of, I should imagine, of over an hour.
Q. Now, with what did Kick strike you?
A. With his fist, sir.
Q. Now, Edwards did he hit you with his open hand, or with his fist?
A. His fist and open hand, sir.
Q. At the time you went to Kick’s office, how many teeth did you have in your head?
A. Fifteen, sir. On the bottom, sir. Fifteen of my own, sir. On the top I had artificial teeth.
Q. And when you came out of Kick’s office, how many teeth did you have?
A. I just had a stump here and there.
Q. You may state whether or not those teeth were knocked out in Kick’s office.
A. They were, sir.
Q. Now, were there any lacerations or cuts any place on your body as a result of that beating?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. Here (pointing)
Q. Do you have a scar there at the present time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any other place on your body that you were cut as a result of that beating?
A. My mouth and nose, sir.
Q. Now, after that were you given medical treatment?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. In the hospital, by a prisoner, sir.
Q. And were you subsequently transferred to a prisoner of war camp?
A. Not for quite a long time, sir.
Q. On what date were you transferred to a prisoner of war camp?
A. At the end of March, sir.
Q. Of what year?
A. 1944

Prosecution: You may inquire

CROSS- EXAMINATION

Questions by the defense:
Q. Where were you taken prisoner?
A. In Libia, sir.
Q. And what was your unit in Lybia?
A. Welsh Regiment.
Q. How long had you been in Africa?
A. Since the declaration of war, sir.
Q. And you went to all of these camps in Italy first?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were taken prisoner by Germans, or Italians?
A. By Germans, sir.
Q. And you first came to Dachau on 18th October 1943, is this correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the first Camp Commander in Dachau that you saw was not Weiss, was it?
A. The first Commandant when I arrived in Dachau was Weiss.
Q. Did you see him?
A. I saw him going around the camp, sir.
Q. But he wasn’t the man who said, and spoke to you, “What does that dog want?”
A. No, sir.
Q. In fact, you never had any conversations with Weiss, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know the name of the Commandant who said to you, or in your presence, “What does that dog want?”
A. I think his name was Weiter.
Q. And at that time you say Weiter, the man up there on the extreme right, knocked you down?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where did he hit you?
A. He hit me here (indicating).
Q. In the face?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you lose any teeth as a result of that?
A. No, sir.
Q. So after the Polish interpreter told the Commandant Weiter what you wanted, Weiter gave you permission to go to the Political Department, is that right?
A. He told the Polish interpreter, sir, that I was to see the Political Agent.
Q. And when was the first time you went to see any Political Agent?
A. In November, sir, 1943.
Q. About what time?
A. Around the 7th or 8th, sir.
Q. And was it necessary for you to go back to his office five times before you were able to get to see him, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the Polish interpreter spoke to Kick, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In German?
A. In German, yes.
Q. Do you know what he said?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know what, if anything, he said that caused Kick to strike him?
A. No, sir, he was interpreting from English into German. I couldn’t speak German.
Q. Do you know exactly what it was that he said in German to Kick that caused Kick to strike him?
A. Well, if he interpreted what I told him, I told him I was an English prisoner of war, and I wished to be sent to a Prisoner of War Camp, or for the Geneva people to be informed that I was in Dachau.
Q. But you don’t know, of your own knowledge, do you, whether or not that was exactly what the Polish interpreter interpreted to Kick?
A. No, sir.
Q. As a result of this conversation that was going on between the Polish interpreter and Kick apparently for no reason at all Kick hauled off and struck him?
A. that is what I said, sir.
Q. And then you say Kick told you the Polish interpreter to go out, and he turned to you and started talking in English, is that Correct?
A. In slow English, yes, sir.
Q. Did he speak good English?
A. Well, understandable, sir.
Q. How long did you talk with him in English?
A. Well, for about twenty minutes, sir, and then for the remainder I was just answering I was English and I was being called a liar, and I said “I am not, I am English.”
Q. What did Kick accuse you of being?
A. Not of being English.
Q. And up until that time did Kick strike you?
A. The first man to push me was an SS man.
Q. No, Will you please answer my question, Sergeant. Up until that time had Kick struck you?
A. No, sir.
Q. And after apparently twenty minutes elapsed an SS man came in, is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he here in the box?
A. No, I don’t see him.
Q. Do you know what his name is?
A. No, sir.
Q. And he pushed you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know why?
A. After Kick had spoken to him, sir.
Q. And do you know what Kick had said to him?
A. No, sir, I have no knowledge of German sir.
Q. When the SS man pushed you, what did you do?
A. I just stumbled the way I was pushed, sir.
Q. Did you make any effort or attempt to come back at the SS man?
A. I had been too long in Dachau to try anything like that.
Q. You had been in Dachau just about less than a month.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your being that length of time made you realize the futility of making any passes back at SS men?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that when this SS man pushed you, you made remonstrations whatever?
A. No, sir.
Q. You just took it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he push you towards Kick, or away from Kick?
A. Toward him.
Q. Now, when you were pushed in the direction of Kick, what did Kick do?
A. He struck me.
Q. With open hand or fist?
A. Well, it felt like his boot.
Q. Did he hit you with a boot?
A. No, but it felt like it.
Q. Where did he hit you?
A. On the face.
Q. What part of the face?
A. Here (indicating)
Defense: Indicating the right nostril.
Q. When he hit you, what happened to you?
A. I swayed back to my original position, sir.
Q. Back to the SS man?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he do, push you back toward Kick?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he strike you with?
A. His fist, sir.
Q. Where did he hit you?
A. Here, sir. (indicating)
Defense: Indicating under the right ear.
Q. Then what happened?
A. That went on, backwards and forwards, for about an hour, sir.
Q. After this SS man hit you, did you bounce back toward Kick?
A. I was trying to dodge one or two.
Q. Were you successful?
A. One or two, yes, sir.
Q. And you say this beating took place between the SS man and Kick for about an hour?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as a result of that you lost several teeth, is that right?
A. Fifteen, sir.
Q. Fifteen teeth? After this all was over, how did you leave the room?
A. I staggered out of the room, sir – with assistance.
Q. Who helped you?
A. A foot from the SS man.
Q. And did you leave the building in which the room was in?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I was escorted back into the camp, sir.
Q. By whom?
A. An SS man.
Q. The same SS man?
A. No, sir a sentry.
Q. Where had he been?
A. Well, they used them to bring people coming over, a sentry brings them over and accompanies them back.
Q. Is he here in the court-room?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know what his name is?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever see him after that?
A. I saw him around the camp, yes, sir.
Q. Never knew what his name was?
A. No, sir.
Q. Is that the only time that you ever saw Kick?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see him again?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he beat you that time too?
A. He pushed me this time, sir.
Q. Where was this, in his office?
A. No, sir, inside of the camp, sir.
Q. How long after this push that you received was it that you were transferred to a prisoner of war camp?
A. About four months, sir.
Q. Did you see Kick after that – after the push?
A. You mean after I left Dachau, sir?
Q. No, after you got pushed the second time in camp.
A. I saw Kick on the second time inside of the camp.
Q. Yes, that is the time he pushed you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see him after that?
A. Not up until now, sir.

Defense: No further Questions.

There being no further questions, the witness was excused and withdrew.
The court then, at 12:10 o’clock P.M. on 8 December 1945, adjourned to meet at 8:30 o’clock A.M. on 10 December 1945.

Signed
W.D. DENSON
Lt.Col. JAGD
Trial Judge Advocate.